This is the first episode of four parts of a new monthly series! Join host Wendy Schiller as they interview working artists and other supporting characters here in the Boston scene, discussing the pressures of perfectionism, making work, and just putting yourself out there, and how everyone’s juggling it all on a day to day basis.
I had the privilege of sitting down with two of my favorite Brighton-based artists, Greg Marquis (Actor Observer / Marquis Lavoie), and Michelle Mee Nutter (Squished, Allergic) as they discuss hopes, fears, and how many things (including hope) can hinge on papier mâché. Transcript and podcast link below!
(***EDITOR’S NOTE: The following transcript has been edited for readability, we talk over each other a bunch so trust me it’s better this way)
WENDY
This is part of my blog Test Phase, which is named for that time the MBTA hadn’t greenlit the cards yet, and all the little scanners said ‘test phase’ on them when you walked on the bus. But it’s also because I feel like I do a lot of different things. I wouldn’t necessarily say I am a photographer, although I feel like that’s what people know me around town for. So when I think of art, I think of it as a very multidisciplinary thing. The way that we have to market ourselves and be consistent in order to like get the following that hopefully frees us from this capitalist prison or whatever. It reduces how you can talk about what you do and see. So I’m trying to push that, but before we get there, just like, who are [both of] you? Who am I? Why are we here?
GREG
Mm. Well, I didn’t realize this was an existential podcast. I’ll start. My name is Greg Marquis. I am a musician in Boston. I mean, do you want the laundry list of things I do? Yeah, I work in venues, I do lights, I sometimes do audio, I do event production, event management. I am vocalist in a post-hardcore band called Actor Observer. I’m also a solo indie folk artist under the name Marquis Lavoie. A new EP out now. Three whole songs.
MICHELLE
And I am Greg’s partner, Michelle. Anyway, I’m an illustrator. I work in kids books and kids publishing mostly. I make graphic novels and picture books and I am venturing into writing my own as well.
WENDY
Amazing. Yeah. You’re both two of the most talented people I know. Um, and I just like being in your house, so I like to invite myself over with equipment so I can create proof that we all know each other.
GREG
Yeah. It’s important. This is just just for archival purposes of Wendy’s personal life. This is not being posted anywhere.
WENDY
That was what I told myself when I recorded my first podcast episode of anything. I was like, well, the very least I’ll have a conversation: proof that I left my house.
GREG
I think that’s how podcasts came to be. They’re like, yo, what if we were talking, but like, other people heard it? Damn, dude. That’s crazy. I just got a lot of ideas, you know?
WENDY
But, yeah, I mean, what made you both start creating work? Like where? Where did you start doing stuff?
GREG
Wow
WENDY
We go deep here.
GREG
Where did you start creating stuff? Okay, I have an answer. Michelle, do you want to go?
MICHELLE
Well, you have an answer, so!
GREG
All right. Music’s always been in my life. I came up in a musical family. Dad was a musician while he was playing guitar and singing blues folk, that kind of stuff. You know, going to concerts, bringing us to concerts. My brothers always had bands. I have two older brothers, and for as long as I can remember, I always heard music happening from the basement drums, guitar, bass, you know, the whole thing. My mom, and this gets into interesting territory, while not like a “musician” by title is a very musically engaged person. Always has been. Music has always been important to her. Art has always been important to her. It’s always been a high priority. She loves it just for the love of it. And she’s got a good ear, a good voice. She’s always been able to sing and for her, it’s always just been just a fun recreational or community thing with, you know, her family. She comes from a big family and singing was just always a part of life. And so, it was just kind of natural that I also saw music as a normal thing to regularly prioritize. I was always singing. I started piano when I was seven, and then I switched to guitar when I was thirteen and I was in choirs. And so it was just sort-of the air I breathe is, yeah, music is important and it’s worth prioritizing. And, my parents were always, as long as you’re staying out of trouble and if it makes you happy, you know, we support it, which is really nice. And that’s how I ended up as a penniless musician. Cursed forever to pursue the dream. It is very wholesome. Michelle’s story is quite different.
MICHELLE
Just as wholesome. I think mine’s more straightforward where: I really love drawing and I loved children’s illustration, and I never grew out of it. I loved picture books. And I have a real problem with talking to people. It stresses me out and it always has. So books have been one of the things that I’ve enjoyed the most. And I, when I realized that you could have that as your job, I just kind of started and didn’t stop. And it was one of the things that people would always be, oh, you’re really good at that. So then I kept going with it and I enjoy it. I know it sounds like I don’t, but I do. The things that you love, dearest, will probably be your biggest headaches at the same time.
WENDY
Indeed, the duality of man. So it’s it’s always been sequential art specifically.
MICHELLE
Uh, not necessarily. I was thinking more logically where I was, okay, if I’m going to do this as my job, I need to find out the most lucrative way to do this, how to survive in this capitalist hellscape. And so I was, okay, picture books, they seem to be everywhere. Seems pretty easy. I can do that. And then, I went to a conference and I met up with a bunch of agents, and one of them had a project in mind for a graphic novel. And that was kind of before the graphic novel middle grade market blew up. And so I was, I don’t know. I’ve never done anything that big before, like a project that big! And, I had always loved comics and manga growing up, but I never thought that that would actually be something that could be done. Because over here, Western comics, it’s very much, you know, your Dark Horse comics or Marvel and it’s very issue based where in Japan, for instance, the comics industry is very, very different. And it’s probably one of their biggest markets book-wise. So I just didn’t think that that would be possible in Western markets.
WENDY
So what, what projects are both giving both of you life right now? What is actually making you excited about making work these days.
GREG
Is that, wait, it’s giving people life? Who’s getting life out of this?
Well, I just released my EP. Truthfully, releasing it isn’t giving me life. The process of making it was really gratifying and satisfying to me. And it was a practice and enjoying the process and not being stressed about the results. Everything since then has been me stressing about the results, and I finally decided I’m just going to put it out because holding it so close has just been more stressful and devaluing all the good that it brought me from the process of making it. And so, I’m excited that it is out now and that there are other people finally hearing it and getting to enjoy it. So each person who actually listens and enjoys it, that’s kind of nice. It just makes me eager to close that chapter, move on to the next stuff because I have other new songs I’m working on, but Actor Observer is actually in a place that I’m pretty content with at the moment.
We’re about to go on tour and we have a split coming out. We have a label pressing it to vinyl and there seems to be a lot of excitement. The the band we’re doing the split with is called God’s Eyes, and they just released a new song and video today that looks awesome and sounds amazing. I’m really excited because we put this plan together largely out of, yeah, let’s do something that makes sense and is strategic. But also we know is just what we want to do. We know we want to put this music out. We are best friends with this band. We’ve been friends with God’s eyes for a long time, and we know that a tour together, successful or not, will be a fun time. And a lot of the things we’ve been focusing on for years have been, oh, what’s the most strategic? And what’s this and what’s that? And worrying about the results and the numbers. And that is part of this. We’ve thought about those things, but we’re all just looking forward to doing the thing we love together and doing a split together in the way that I think splits are meant to be, which is a camaraderie and lifting each other up kind of thing. And it has really felt like that, we’re repping them, they’re repping us and we wrote a song together and we get to perform it together. I usually go into tours just really nervous and anxious that everything hasn’t been done yet. And sure, there’s always more that can be done, but right now I’m actually like, this is the most excited I’ve been for a tour in a while. I think a lot of it has to do with having a lot of people involved who really care, and I really back and I know that they back me. So right now I’m feeling pretty good about that.
MICHELLE
I think I’ve been struggling with that because you have this dream, right? And you’re like, okay, I have all these things that I want to do and I have this goal and this vision. And that was me just getting to this place where I have a publisher, I have an agent, and I’m like, yeah, that’s it. That’s the end result. And then I’m like, okay, I’m there. Oh, I have to keep going. And I have to keep figuring that out. And I love what I do, but it’s become also the only thing that I do. And so now it’s just trying to understand how I can find art for myself again, where it’s not as much of a commitment or a contracted look and style that, you know, I’m kind of locked into, but I don’t I haven’t figured that out.
WENDY
Anything that isn’t directionally artistic is also a valid answer to what’s giving you life right now. I didn’t make that expressly clear. It’s hard when the thing that you love doing is the thing that you spend all your time doing, it makes it harder to talk about.
MICHELLE
I think there’s also this misconception that if you are, you know, from the outside perspective, successful, it everyone is like, oh, you must love what you do. You must absolutely. Oh, you must eat, breathe, shit it out constantly. No, I struggle with it all the time. And to the point where it’s, am I even doing art? Right? It seems like it’s so much easier for other people and I just keep struggling with it.
WENDY
Because other people don’t have these problems and it’s easy. And they wake up in the morning and they go phthbhhbbbt! And then they make something (I just fake spat in my hand). And it’s done. That’s that’s how it works. That’s the process. And then it goes super viral. And then they’re successful. Yeah.
GREG
And there’s no struggle. And they don’t have imposter syndrome. And they’re a mentally perfect person who doesn’t struggle with any other issues. And yeah, that that’s how everyone else is except me. Right?
WENDY
Yeah. Yeah. You’re the broken one, Greg. Oh, man. So is, is creativity something that you access or something that you build?
MICHELLE
It’s something that I have to hunt down and kill. I stalk creativity like a murderer.
WENDY
That makes sense to me. Creativity to me is a block of ice that I’m slowly melting with my hands. Yeah. And I can melt it too fast. Or I can freeze myself. Give myself a weird little burn.
GREG
I like that.
MICHELLE
I like that a lot. It’s a lot better.
WENDY
I like yours, though, because it’s different approaches. Yeah, it speaks to how we all think [differently] about it.
GREG
I like the subtractive method of physical art that you describe because, I’m working on a song for the band right now where the main theme is more akin to trying to grow something, but over-watering it, or sheltering it too much and smothering it. And you know, stifling the growth of something by keeping it unexposed or something like that or just nursing it for too long. So mine’s the inverse. But also, it’s funny you mentioned that because one of the lines references how long it takes for a glacier to form and, and how quickly it can be melted through heat.
WENDY
Wow.
GREG
Yeah.
WENDY
I had never thought about that. Because glaciers are so big.
GREG
They are so big.
WENDY
So Greg is the same part of you that’s writing for Actor Observer, the same part of you that’s writing for your acoustic project. Or are they different parts? Is that the wrong question?
GREG
No. Well, I get the theme of the question. And it’s not so clean cut, but also there is a difference. Actor Observer is a different type of energy and a different attitude of what I’m trying to say and who my audience is versus Marquis Lavoie is more for me, my personal and more interior life and, you know, it’s not as angry, but still introspective. All my lyrics are introspective. With Marquis Lavoie, I’m sitting fiddling around with my guitar and messing around on my computer and coming up with melodies by myself and with, Actor Observer it’s almost always a collaborative project with all of us in the room, or a few of us in the room, and, you know, we’re making the music first and then lyrics are coming later. So, you know, different processes, but I think it’s all coming from the same place I have. Basically, I do have one folder of notes of song ideas. This is every thought or thing I have that could become a lyric, a song title or a concept or full-fledged lyrics written out in there. And I don’t divide them until I’ve been like, okay, this song is going to be for Actor Observer. This song is going to be Marquis Lavoie, but I let them come out of the same place and go, okay, that makes more sense for this song because they’re different vibes. So if this song feels more urgent and angry it might fit in the AO camp, if it feels a little more tender, sensitive, or personal, it tends to push more into the Marquis Lavoie camp. But honestly, I’m still figuring it out.
WENDY
Is it the same as papier-mâché goose [making] Michelle?
MICHELLE
Oh, papier-mâché Michelle is a whole other beast. Unhinged.
WENDY
For context, you made this amazing prop that got used in one of AO’s music videos last year. You both made those. What was that process like?
GREG
I mean, it was fun. It was both fun and torturous in different ways. But the way art usually is. In that way, it was, oh, creating is just like this. But for us, what was fun about it is it was a deliberately playful thing. We came up with a music video idea because I was struggling to come up with a concept that was serious and esoteric, and it was making me feel so, talk about imposter syndrome! I was like, “I feel I’m forcing it. I feel I’m trying to be something I’m not,” But I want to have a good video. Michelle was like, why are you taking yourself so seriously? I was like, oh, I wish I could have a silly, fun video, like Origami Angel. I feel like pop punk bands get away with silly videos, but we’re a ‘serious’ band. And she was like, that’s so dumb because you guys are the goofiest guys I know. It literally just came from the “what if you let that side of yourself show more in your very ‘serious’ post-hardcore band?” Like, sure, the song came from a serious place, but there’s other aspects to our personalities and our lives that keep us going. I mean, humor is, I would say, just as fundamental to the existence of AO and all of our mental health as the music itself, if not more so.
MICHELLE
It’s what gets you through all of the headaches that are being a band.
GREG
Yeah. It’s what makes spending time together the most fun and why we’re all friends. So, it was a challenge to be, what could a funny video look like. And I was, oh, “I don’t want it to be hokey”. And we found a solution, which was: why don’t we make a video that seems really serious? Like you guys are trying to be serious. The video is shot rly srsly. But there’s one element that’s just cannot be taken seriously. And, and I was like, yeah, I don’t know. It just seems like a wild goose chase. And Michelle goes, that’s it. That’s the video. I was like, what do you mean? She’s like, you guys are just chasing after a goose? and we both at the same time were: but it has to be like, a really shitty puppet goose, right? And she’s like, yeah, really BAD, like papier mâché. And we’re like, yeah, this looks so STUPID. How could you ever take that seriously? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but shot like a horror movie. And we just ran with it. And we can make it together and it’ll save money.
MICHELLE
And it’s really all just like cost cutting where we could. And because we did find this really hilarious French puppet that would have been great.
GREG
I still have it as a sticker because it looks so funny.
MICHELLE
But we can’t afford that.
GREG
We couldn’t afford the French puppet.
MICHELLE
So crudely done goose was best and it was a lot of fun.
GREG
He ended up being our biggest star and our favorite child, and also the worst son of a bitch we’ve ever conjured into this world.
WENDY
Every band needs a mascot. Unwittingly.
GREG
He’s more of an ass-scot. Wait, that’s a thing.
MICHELLE
Yeah, that is a thing. Fashion statement.
GREG
Damn. But that process was deliberately meta in it being its own. Self-torment to put all this time and energy into this physical thing. We already have busy lives. We already have art careers. But, gotta make time to put another layer of papier mâché on our stupid goose child. But that was the best part. And as it was coming together, I was like, oh yeah, that looks great. Like BAD.
MICHELLE
My favorite was the mouth because we were, okay, it can’t be too good. So it has to be bad. And I was like, Greg, you do it because you don’t draw, and it would be really good for it to be shaky and I will try to make it perfect and I shouldn’t.
GREG
We had to deliberately dumb it down. We were looking at goose pictures like, okay, well, should it be this? Because that’s more accurate to how goose looks and we’d have to stop and be no, let’s do the dumb version of that.
WENDY
But it’s reality versus not reality. Adobe used to sponsor a creative conference and Michael Beirut, a guy who did all this architecture. He has this whole keynote speech about working on redoing the branding on a children’s museum. The current branding was stick figures of parents and kids holding hands. And he was, we had to get away from that really fast because it’s inauthentic that an adult drew a child’s drawing and everyone looks at it and, you know, deep down in your stomach that it’s not real. Mhm.
MICHELLE
Oh, interesting.
WENDY
And that sounds like it has to be authentically bad. It can’t be inauthentic. All of us are skilled.
GREG
I’ve done some sculpting in the past, and if I put my mind to it, I can make something that looks pretty decent. So that was a part of it. Any instinct that was, hey, should I take more time to get this perfect? Like, nope, slap it on.
MICHELLE
Well, it’s interesting because, I feel like a lot of artists, but I can only speak for myself, struggle with the fact of working really hard to prove to other people and yourself that you can do that thing. So for me, I have to prove to so many people that I can draw well. And so then to reverse engineer that where it’s, okay, now I want to draw something really, really bad. And, but somehow that’s better than if I try to draw it really well because there’s something authentic about it. But then I still have to fight that part of my brain that’s, well, you need to show everyone.
WENDY
Like you show up to your friend’s meditation party and you’re like, ready for the football game? Let’s go. And everyone’s like, we are sitting quietly. Yeah. And so if, if the goose was too good, it would have been too above. Yeah.
GREG
Right, right. Who are you trying to impress? What are we doing here? Yeah. No, But it was it was fun because it was just about executing the thing, like get the thing done and embracing mistakes because it’s actually better. Anything that made it worse actually made it better. And that was a really liberating thing to do for someone who has perfectionism. I don’t know if you have perfectionism.
MICHELLE
Oh my God, yeah.
GREG
Yeah.
WENDY
I really don’t have that. I don’t think about it.
GREG
You’re allowed to have fun. It’s supposed to be fun. Also, art’s kind of ridiculous. Like, what’s at stake here? I feel like every music video is both I love this and I never want to make a music video ever again.
WENDY
Yeah. Is it better to be in the middle of making it, or is it better to be done with it?
MICHELLE
I feel like those are two different activities for different parts of my brain. When you’re in the middle of it, there is this adrenaline where it’s, okay, there are all these things that have to be done. There are all these things that have been done. And then there’s this almost high of the potential of what it can be before you go into the editing phase where it’s, okay, now you get to actually see what you have and the stress of, oh, did we do everything? Correct? So I think the middle is this really high energy kind of feeling. And then when it’s out, for me personally, I get to be, okay, that’s done. I never have to think about it ever again. And it’s more of a relaxation thing.
GREG
Yeah.
MICHELLE
It’s the same for my books too. My favorite part of any book is when I’m finished with it. During the middle, that’s tougher to enjoy. But there are good parts and bad parts of it all. But my favorite for books is when it’s done.
WENDY
Yeah. From a reading perspective, which is not what you’re talking about at all, but if I’m reading a book, I’m trying to go through it as quickly as possible.
MICHELLE
Oh, so you don’t like to savor books?
WENDY
I have lost my ability to savor. And I think it relates to my ability to make work. I try to speed through the work now because, the pain of making it is too much, so I have to be away from it. But that also prevents me from putting enough into it.
MICHELLE
So you think that that’s translating to all your other interests? Do you find yourself doing that with shows or other things that you enjoy?
WENDY
It’s easier with shows because the adrenaline matches my adrenaline, especially if I’m at a heavy or a fast-paced show, being like, ah, I gotta get it done, and that and the pace of, oh, I gotta turn this around in ten days. That really matches, I think, the frequency at which my brain [is]. I think I’ve always been this way a little bit, but it’s definitely gotten worse over the years. Whereas I don’t sit down and draw anymore. Not because I’ve lost the taste for it, but because I don’t have (I don’t think I ever had) patience, but there’s something really prohibitive and painful about just sitting and trying to render something.
MICHELLE
Yeah.
WENDY
These days that’s changed.
GREG
Yeah, well, I was just thinking, this is a really interesting topic. What’s what was your question What’s more painful? The process of creating or putting it out? Yeah. After putting it out or having it be out? And Michelle’s totally right. But, I think it’s fun. More fun than having a succinct answer to that, is dissecting all the components. Because now you’ve got me thinking, starting something new is the hardest step.
MICHELLE
But interesting.
GREG
I think second hardest is finishing something. So working on something with a dopamine seeking brain, if I can wrangle my attention to get into the process, then I love the hyperfixation and the little rewards that come from the process. Because when I think about making that video, for example, we came up with an idea, inception of ideas, just a little spark of inspiration. But then comes, oh God, we gotta plan this. And that’s where you get discouraged because you have this mountain of stuff ahead of you. So starting is something you really want to procrastinate on and put off, and it just feels really intimidating. So putting that together, I hated that part. But as I worked on it and put together the draft version of the video to see if it would even work, I found myself having little moments of dopamine hits where I’m like, oh my God, that’s really funny. Oh, I didn’t expect that to sync up. Oh, this is going to be really good. And then when we started making the goose, it was like, oh, we got to do this whole thing. But the whole process, we were pausing and laughing and then driving ourselves insane. And then, you know, doing the video. How many times were we like breaking down, laughing, like, oh my God, the little goose feet in the camera.
MICHELLE
Well, there were always sparks of joy throughout the process. And I think that’s working with someone else. It brings that out. Because my work is extremely solitary. I have an author that I work with and we are in constant communication, but it’s not like you’re in the same room working on things together. We might, if we lived in the same state or in the same town, but, all of the people that I work with live in separate areas. So I will send something out into the void, which is my computer, and I’ll hear a response back, but it’s not hearing the person, it’s not seeing the person, it’s seeing the internet iteration of what their thoughts are. And so it’s still just with my computer. So ergo with myself, which is just so weird. Weird way to work. So it was nice to be able to work on a project with someone else with tangible things.
GREG
The social reward of collaboration and bouncing ideas off people is not only reassuring, but it’s just more fun. It’s like killing two birds with one stone. Yes, I’m being creative, but I’m also getting quality time with with people that are inspiring and fun. And that’s, I think, why I’ve gravitated towards a band more than my solo stuff and made more progress with a band. It’s much harder for me to do that solitary thing because there’s a lot more second guessing. My worst collaborator is myself. And I also feel like to be able to be that productive in a solitary environment requires having a certain relationship with yourself, a certain self-assuredness ,even if you’re not, that doesn’t mean you’re always confident that you know the right path. But knowing that, if I keep going, it’s it’ll be worth it. And I’ve watched that with Michelle and it’s the thing I’m inspired by the most. Watching Michelle work ands how solitary her work is. And yet there’s so much output and so much quality and so many things that I’m like, wow, you just seem so self-assured, now I’ve talked to her enough and I’m watching her shake her head.
MICHELLE
Not. True.
GREG
That’s a false mentality. But she still powers through it. And that’s the inspiring part. She’s she’s got to get it done.
WENDY
But I think that’s why the perception of what you do is so magical. Whether or not it actually feels magical is like it does. You do give off. I can sit with myself and create something and I know you well enough that like, that’s not what’s happening necessarily, but your core is strong, and you’re pulling something from thin air instead of the relationship with other people. I’m not explaining.
MICHELLE
No, no, that, that makes a lot of sense. I feel bad when I give off the perception that don’t go stir crazy or I have days where nothing is productive or happens and I have to fight with my own practice all of the time. It never feels intuitive. I feel like there are some artists that they just have this, it’s more of a feeling, and they just ride on it and they follow that feeling. For me, I have to engineer the feeling, I have to engineer the environment to coax my artistic self out of its shell and be like, okay, now trap it. Now it has to work.
GREG
Yeah, that’s the hunt she was talking about.
WENDY
This is a very good description.
GREG
And I described it as an elusive bunny. I’m not trying to kill it, though. I’m just trying to catch it. So it’d be my friend.
WENDY
Well, it’s that flow state. What helps you get into flow state? I don’t know, I’ve done the photography thing and there’s enough of a rhythm to it at a concert that I can enter a flow state for it pretty quick. But if I wanted to do a lot of drawing work, I’d have to probably describe it like a hunt because you have to take so much time to start it up again. The engine’s been dormant.
GREG
Well, also there’s creating and then there’s editing. I love editing. I can edit all day. Give me something to edit. I will lock in. That’s the next six hours. I’ll fucking have it to you by the end of the day, I’ll edit the shit out of that. Doesn’t matter what it is. Creating something from scratch is, yeah, don’t ask me to do that. I’m busy. I’ll find anything else to put in my way, to not have to go to that place of uncertainty and wait until something comes up, because it is a lot of work to engineer that space. And there’s no promise. There’s no guarantee. At least with editing, there’s a promise that something’s there. But it’s also why it’s so important to shit something out first. Get over yourself. Be like, it doesn’t matter if it’s not good, I just have to show up.
WENDY
You’re both saying something really important about potential energy. Like if the potential energy is high enough and the goal is feels attainable enough, it’s easier to get into something. This is helping me reflect. I love taking photos. I hate editing them. I almost never look at them ever again.
GREG
I get that though.
WENDY
But I love editing podcast episodes. Like it really just depends. So I’ll lock in on certain stuff, but I won’t lock in on other stuff related to a different conversation we’ve had in the past. I think it was when we were looking at, photos for that EP release, and we were talking about the tension between being a beginner at something and then actually having to take responsibility for that thing, because I could draw a little diagram of it where the imposter syndrome payoff is really high. You’re like, “this is free,” It doesn’t matter if I’m bad at it, no one has any expectations. And then slowly over time, how you see yourself in the space or how other people see yourself in the space, or maybe the feedback you’re getting is like, you’re trying and you’re struggling with it more than you expect. At some point, the payoff doesn’t feel good anymore. That’s when the imposter syndrome really kicks in, because it got real somehow. And I think that’s also what I’m trying to investigate, is what feels fake and fun? Is there a point where it drops off? And then how do you push through that? Because everybody has their own way of pushing through that.
GREG
Huh. That just made me think about a thing I’ve heard a lot: push yourself outside your comfort zone. If you’re getting comfortable with something, it’s time to push yourself to become uncomfortable and dare yourself to do things that might scare you, blah, blah, blah, all that motivational mumbo jumbo. But getting to the crux of it, right, I wonder if that’s also connected to the excitement of starting something new and pushing into a field that you don’t have experience in, because the rate of growth, like the learning curve or rate of growth, it can be really rapid at first, but then it sort of plateaus.
WENDY
Or you have the right kind of constraints. When I was in learning science, we had this little chart, you need the tension of what you don’t know to evenly match what you do know in a way where you feel like there’s enough scaffolding for you to take that next step forward. And so you plateau otherwise.
GREG
Yeah. And I wonder if that’s, you know, connected to the feeling, that excitement of, oh, this is new and there’s no expectation and nobody expects anything out of me. So I’m just playing. And then you’re having these little breakthroughs and discoveries. And I’m like, wow, I did that. I can’t even believe I could do even something at just that level. Let’s see how much further I can push it.
MICHELLE
It’s the brain synapses. You’re making new ones.
GREG
Yeah. Is that what it is?
MICHELLE
Probably sounds right.
GREG
This is a neuroscience podcast.
WENDY
I guess the payoff phase is different depending on what the hobby is. Because, if it’s something like knitting, you have to master a certain fundamental before you can feel like you’re building anything. If it’s like pen on paper or more of a free drawing kind of thing, it’s more about finding that flow state first than having a technical ability.
GREG
When I got into lighting. Because I’ve only been in LD for a little over three years now. First was intimidation. The reason I never even thought about it was like, oh God, I’ve seen that the programs at my venues. And I was like, it looks so foreign to me. And then I started training and it was very foreign. And I was like, oh my God, this isn’t intuitive. Can I do this? But once I started to grasp just a couple concepts, a little boost of confidence, I did a little more, a little boost of confidence. And I was like, whoa, I made something look good. Bigger boost of confidence. Like all these little rewards, UMNUMNUMNUMNUM and that’s the synapses that you’re talking about that are definitely, we’re not fact checking that. That’s what it is.
MICHELLE
Yeah. That’s what they taste like. They taste good.
GREG
UMNUMNUMNUMNUM They taste so good. And then, I reached a point. My first year of being an LD, I was like, oh, I’m new and don’t expect anything. So everything was a pleasant surprise. And so after the first year, year and a half, I was like, hey, I think I’m kind of good at this. And I started to feel a little confident, like, hey, I could be a touring LD. I could really pursue this as a career. And that’s when I saw the next mountain and I was like, oh my God, there is still so much I don’t know. There’s so many skills I haven’t earned. Like, I could never be a touring LD. I shouldn’t even apply. The imposter syndrome was so real. I was like, no, I should just stay in my lane until I learn more. Yeah, that’s what I’ll do once I learn X amount and I can do X, Y, Z, then then I can say I qualify.
MICHELLE
There’s always the preparation, it feels productive where you’re, oh, I just need to read this book or, oh, I just need to make this list before I do that or learn this one aspect. I need to do all of the research and all the prep and then I’ll be ready.
GREG
But my favorite thing about it is every LD from my entire staff that helped train me or the new ones who I help train to other LDs at other venues, to LDs on huge tours that are doing Roadrunner rooms and stuff like that. They’ve all said the same thing, which is, “yeah, that never goes away, pal. You always feel like you don’t know enough and you’re you’re still behind and you’re just winging it”. And most of us got into this job just by figuring it out on the fly. And I had to find the inspiration and motivation that, okay, I can just keep trying and that ‘fake it till you make it’ kind of feeling. I reached a place personally with that where I feel like I’m in a comfortable place of I know what I know, I know there’s a bunch I don’t, and I know that that’s okay.
MICHELLE
I feel like the people who aren’t as bogged down by it, their, their attitude is more like, okay, so ‘what if’.
GREG
Yeah, they’re more like, okay, someone’s mad because I messed up or I sold myself on something I couldn’t actually do. ‘Oh, well! that doesn’t mean anything! That doesn’t matter. That doesn’t mean I’m less than as a person. That doesn’t make me a worse professional.’
WENDY
They’re not beating themselves with it, like a forty pound bag of sand.
GREG
I hate that, I hate those people, I hate that power.
MICHELLE
I think that’s, someone without anxiety.
GREG
It’s fucking bullshit.
WENDY
Yeah. You’re making a very astute point Michelle. Some people just have this internal ability to have the grit necessary to not, like, just tear themselves apart inside. They can just build on wherever they are and not really let like, is it a presence of place? I don’t know what this; I don’t have it. I don’t recognize that.
GREG
Well, it’s the thing we both observed in Michelle where we’re like, we respect that, that she is able to work in a solitary way and get stuff done. Not that it’s easy for her, but that even though it’s difficult, she still perseveres and powers through and comes out on the other side having been productive and successful. And it’s the same thing.
WENDY
That’s also exactly the opposite of what you’re saying you’re doing, Michelle. You’re basically also saying you’re afraid. And we’re just like, wow, Michelle doesn’t seem afraid.
GREG
It’s not the absence of fear. It’s the courage to see fear. Know that you have fear and continue anyway.
MICHELLE
It’s, it’s like running into the room because you’re scared of the dark, but closing your eyes and screaming and running in it. Does that make any sense?
WENDY
Yeah, yeah. No it does. I was talking to a friend about this, and they were like, my superpower is I’m afraid all the time because I’m pretty sure everyone’s gonna leave me. At the end of the day, I’m gonna be alone because I’m a big liar. So real.
MICHELLE
And you’re not a real photographer.
WENDY
Yeah, nothing. Nothing I do is real or actual. So I’m white knuckling. There’s, a layer of fear pervading everything that I do. And so it means sometimes I can fundamentally mismatch with people who are afraid and don’t have that same layer of, well, you bust through it. Not everyone wants to bust through it every single day. All the time. Yeah. But it also is kind of a superpower in a way, because it’s, you can’t hurt me worse than I’m gonna hurt myself. I’ve already lost. Which means there are no stakes, which then puts the imposter syndrome away.
GREG
That’s a whole other thing.
WENDY
Which, maybe that’s not the best mental calculus.
GREG
Psychology. Podcast.
MICHELLE
Let’s talk about our deepest, darkest fears.
WENDY
But does that sound- I don’t know, Michelle is able to just stably move through the world.
GREG
Yeah, I actually think I like the fear of the dark thing, because I remember the way I got over my fear of the dark when I was a kid, the hangout space in my house was the basement and basements are creepy. And when you turn off the lights and it’s nighttime, you’re like, that’s the last place you want to be. And sometimes the light switch to turn off the light would be the opposite side of the room as the door to exit. So I’d have to turn off the light and then run through the dark and run upstairs. And like, you know, the lights got to get shut off. So you just do it and it’s fucking terrifying. And you hate it. You’re like, oh, I hate this part. So you just run as fast as you can. And one day I was like, just because it’s dark doesn’t mean that suddenly it’s a different space. If I closed my eyes right now and the lights were on, I wouldn’t be scared. So pretend it’s like my eyes are closed and the space is the same, right? And so I talked myself through it, and I challenged myself to see how long I could stay, how slowly I could move through the space. And so I would turn off the lights and just stand still, and I’d feel the fear. And then eventually I’d go, okay, fuck this. And I’d run. And over time I would walk slowly, and eventually I would just stand there. And eventually I found myself, at some point, I don’t remember when it was, I could just stand there as long as I wanted. It was like exposure therapy. And I was like, all right, well, I’m done. Not afraid of the dark anymore. I feel like that’s the thing we’re we’re talking about. It’s that same sort of, yes, you’re scared, but you just have to do it, grit through it. Yeah. And it’s always easier said than done. Like saying it like that. I’m like, oh yeah. Today in particular was a practice in radical acceptance that the optimal conditions don’t exist, and it does not need to be a source of anxiety to let something go without a perfect plan.
MICHELLE
Well, I think we all have these ideas of what a creative life is supposed to look like, or what we think it should be like, and the reality of it is very different than how it’s depicted or, you know, seen online or seen through the lens of, you know, movies or biopics.
WENDY
The biopics, they all effortlessly have many, many hours to spend. We’re all projecting this fake veneer. That’s the thing.
GREG
Why does it feel like that mysterious artist who just shits out gold and seems unbothered and completely content with their process? Why does it seem like that person is everywhere and yet no one I know?
MICHELLE
Well, that’s because the internet.
WENDY
It’s the internet. It’s the flattening. We’re all being reduced to this. Like you have to talk about yourself in a certain way. You have to project the confidence to hope that it comes to you. But we’re all also living in this reality, the vulnerability is where some of the most interesting work gets made. So like all the most interesting artists I know are struggling with this more than projecting.
GREG
And the irony is many of us agree that vulnerability is where the good stuff comes from.
MICHELLE
Yeah, but I think also most of the work is really boring. Like there’s nothing really glamorous about it. There’s nothing really eye catching. It’s just a lot of the same stuff over and over and over again. And so if you have, you know, artists now have to wear so many different hats. So we have to be a content creator. We have to do this and that and all of these other ways that will get us in front of people’s faces. And so you have to play into this entertainer role, which you were probably never supposed to do.
WENDY
Because the interior and the exterior are different and the interior is where it’s coming from in a lot of ways.
MICHELLE
And so the majority of the day to day is very lame, to be honest.
WENDY
Yeah.
GREG
I’m gonna live stream me writing and recording a song. I’m gonna do it where nothing’s gonna change about my habits. I’m gonna walk in and out of the room three million times. I’m gonna get distracted on Instagram. I’m gonna fucking get hungry. And then I’m gonna lock in on, like, an email. For, like, one whole hour. I’m gonna fiddle around with my guitar. I’m gonna break a string. I’m going to change my string. I’m gonna get up again. You know, I’m gonna live stream that and be like, here you go, everybody. Look into the fishbowl. This is how great art gets made. And then two years later, I will have a song that’s…kind of okay.
WENDY
Again. How close do you hold yourself to the flame? Do you hold yourself very far away from the flame so that it has nothing to do with you? But actually, everyone can tell that you’re holding yourself so far away from the flame that we all know it actually has everything to do with you. Or are you so close to it that at least? Well, yeah, we all see you there.
MICHELLE
What happens if you are inside of the flame?
GREG
Then you’re on fire.
WENDY
Yeah, then you’re on fire.
MICHELLE
Is that do we want that?
WENDY
Maybe.
GREG
I don’t know what we’re talking about anymore. I have no idea what’s going on.
WENDY
Thank you for being here. This has been so wonderful. Just because, again, we’re all out here making stuff, it’s cool to to talk about the nature of making things. We all talk about this ambiently, but I don’t think it’s been until recently we’ve really gotten to talk about it together.
GREG
Well, I try to remind myself and Michelle reminds me, like, when you set out on whatever life that said: I want to prioritize art, reminding yourself, this is what that looks like. You’re definitely doing a lot more than if you didn’t prioritize it at all. And when I feel like, yeah, but I’m not here, I’m not there, or it doesn’t look like this. Michelle reminds me all the time she goes, that’s the gig. You’re doing the gig. This is it. It’s happening. It’s not romantic or idyllic. It just is true.
WENDY
I yeah, I can’t picture anything without it. I guess I would just come home from work and like, watch Netflix. It just sounds so sad.
MICHELLE
Thank you for having us.
WENDY
Yeah. Thank you for being here.
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